Doing Feminist Conversation Analysis by Celia Kitzinger


Doing Feminist Conversation Analysis


Celia KITZINGER



Feminism & Psychology © 2000 SAGE (London, Thousand Oaks and New Delhi),

Vol. 10(2): 163–193.


This article argues for, and offers empirical demonstration of, the value of conversation

analysis (CA) for feminist research. It counters three key criticisms of CA as anti-feminist:

the alleged incompatibility of CA’s social theory with feminism; the purported difficulty of

reconciling analysts’ and participants’ concerns; and CA’s apparent obsession with the

minutiae of talk rather than socio-political reality. It demonstrates the potential of CA for

advances in lesbian/feminist research through two examples: developing a feminist

approach to date rape and sexual refusal; and an ongoing CA study of talk in which

people ‘come out’ as lesbian, gay, bisexual or as having (had) same-sex sexual experiences. These examples are used to illustrate that it is precisely the features of CA criticized

as anti-feminist which can be used productively in doing feminist conversation analysis.

Key Words: coming out, conversation analysis, date rape, ethnomethodology, feminism,

refusal, talk-in-interaction, turn-taking


Feminism is a politics predicated on the belief that women are oppressed; a social

movement dedicated to political change. Issues that have preoccupied feminists

include violence against women, childhood sexual abuse and recovered memories, acquaintance rape, sexual harassment, the beauty myth, compulsory heterosexuality, women’s health and reproductive rights, equal opportunities for women in the workplace and the end of heteropatriarchal domination.


Conversation analysis (CA) is the academic study of talk-in-interaction, as

identified, in particular, with the works of its founder, Harvey Sacks, in conjunction with Emanuel Schegloff and Gail Jefferson. Issues that have preoccupied

conversation analysts include the projectability of turn constructional units, the

onset of overlap in turn-taking organization, turn allocation techniques, the

syntax of sentences in progress, sequence organization, preference structures and

self-correction in the organization of repair in conversation.


It is, then, not immediately apparent, on the basis of the foregoing descriptions

of ‘feminism’ and ‘conversation analysis’, just what would be involved in ‘doing

feminist conversation analysis’, and it is perhaps no surprise that some feminist

and critical psychologists (for example, Wetherell, 1998; Billig, 1999) have

expressed considerable reservations about the value of CA for feminist work –

even suggesting that feminism and CA are ‘oxymorons’ (Speer, 1999). In this

article, I write as a lesbian feminist who has used a range of other methodologies

(including Q methodology, Kitzinger 1987, 1999; story completion, Kitzinger

and Powell, 1995; and discourse analysis, Kitzinger and Wilkinson, 1995;

Wilkinson and Kitzinger, 1995), and who sees in CA some exciting possibilities

for lesbian and feminist research.


Of course, it is true that CA has not hitherto been notable for its contributions

to feminist or lesbian perspectives, but CA hardly stands out in this regard. The

core texts on a whole range of other analytic approaches (including, for example,

experimental design, psychoanalysis, survey technique, oral history, content

analysis, ethnography, grounded theory, psychometric testing, repertory grids, Q

methodology) remain largely silent about feminist issues – and yet feminists have

found ways of adapting these powerful methods and using them for our own

purposes. In the long history of debate about what constitute appropriate feminist

methodologies, there is (so far) not one single methodology that feminists have

agreed has to be discarded as fundamentally incompatible with feminism (see

Reinharz, 1992). The pattern has rather been that particular approaches (for

example, experimental, psychoanalytic or postmodern work) have become

established without feminist involvement and consequently have been roundly

criticized as sexist by feminists who initially dismiss the entire approach (‘the

master’s tools will never demolish the master’s house’). Subsequently, other

feminists working within those approaches have found imaginative and creative

ways to address those feminist criticisms, to make gender and sexuality visible

and to use the master’s tools for feminist purposes – and the approach then

becomes firmly established as a recognized and accepted way of ‘doing feminism’ in the academy. To those feminists who would discard CA as anti-feminist,

then, I would urge caution, if for no other reason than simply on the basis of our

prior experience of rashly dismissing other approaches as fundamentally antifeminist, and having later to ‘reclaim’ them for feminism.


From the earliest development of CA in the 1970s, there has always been some

feminist interest in CA, and this interest has grown enormously in recent years

since the publication of Sacks’s (1995) Lectures on Conversation and the wider

availability of resources on doing CA (Psathas, 1995; Hutchby and Wooffitt,

1998; ten Have, 1999). It is unfortunate that Billig’s recent critique of CA, which

is framed in part as a chivalrous defence of feminism against the demonized

figure of Schegloff, nowhere cites feminist involvement in CA or engages with

feminist claims that CA is of use to us. Not only does Billig overlook classic

feminist work drawing on CA, such as West and Zimmerman’s exploration of

interruptions in cross-sex conversations (Zimmerman and West, 1975; West and

Zimmerman, 1977; West, 1979) and Goodwin’s (1990) analyses of girls’ talk, he

also chooses to ignore the conversation analytic work being carried out by feminists based in his own department, and by others who have presented their work

at Loughborough’s Discourse and Rhetoric Group, of which Billig is a founding

member (for example, Frith, 1998; Frith and Kitzinger, 1998; Stokoe, 1998;

Kitzinger and Frith, 1999; Speer, 1999, forthcoming). Moreover, in arguing that

CA incorporates into its basic premises ideas that are fundamentally antithetical

to feminist (and other critical) values, Billig’s article assumes a narrow and

restrictive model of feminism which is seriously at variance with (and renders

invisible) the full range and variety of feminisms across the social sciences. In

responding to Billig’s critique of CA, Schegloff (1999: 559) has taken him to task

for various ‘misunderstandings or misreadings’ of CA: to that charge I would add

a failure to appreciate the range of contemporary feminist theory around gender

and sexuality.


This article is not, however, intended as a direct response to Billig’s claims, but

rather aims to address those of his concerns which strike me as being more

generally shared, and which have often been raised (in conversation rather than

in print) in critical and feminist academic contexts by students and colleagues

apparently alarmed by my developing interest in CA over the past couple of

years. These key criticisms are: (1) the extent to which CA’s underlying and often

unarticulated social theory is compatible with feminism (or other critical

perspectives); (2) the difficulty of reconciling CA’s emphasis on ‘participants’

orientations’ with the analyst’s own preoccupations with gender, class, sexuality

and power when these are not apparently attended to by participants themselves;

and (3) CA’s apparent obsession with the minute details of mundane everyday

talk, to the exclusion of broader social and political realities. Following a

theoretical discussion of these three (overlapping) ‘troubles with CA’, I will offer

two concrete illustrations drawn from my own work of the value of CA within a

lesbian feminist perspective: the first uses CA to develop a feminist approach to

date rape and sexual refusal; the second is drawn from an ongoing conversation

analytic study of talk in which people ‘come out’ as lesbian, gay, bisexual or as

having (had) same-sex sexual experiences. My theoretical argument and my

practical examples converge in the claim that it is, ironically, precisely those

three features of CA that are critiqued as anti-feminist which offer the most exciting potential for feminist-informed conversation analytic work.


THE TROUBLE WITH CA IS . . .


Conversation analysis is a relatively well-defined field: a core set of key practitioners (for example, Atkinson, Clayman, Drew, Goodwin, Heritage, Holt,

Jefferson, Psathas, Sacks, Schegloff) are clearly visible, and their work defines

the centre of the field. By contrast, feminist and critical approaches are much

more diffuse and heterogeneous, and even within the discipline of psychology

alone, there is no single agreed upon feminist (or critical) theory, methodology,

epistemology or ontology: feminist work embraces the experimental and the

experiential, the positivist and the postmodern (Wilkinson, 1996, 2000; Fox and

Prilleltensky, 1997; Ibáñez and Iñiguez, 1997). This heterogeneity of feminist

and critical perspectives means that CA is open to attack on a bewildering array

of contradictory points from critics of different persuasions. It is clearly not the

case that CA is (or can readily be made) compatible with all variants of feminist

research. As I will suggest below, it is not well suited to sex-differences research,

to any kind of experimental or correlational paradigm, to work seeking to uncover

individual affects or cognitions, or to use in structural-functionalist or essentialist

feminisms. All these approaches flourish under the rich variety of what constitutes feminist psychology today – and none is likely to find CA suited to their

purposes. But feminist research also includes social constructionist, ethnomethodological, postmodern, radical lesbian and queer approaches to sexuality

and gender – and for these feminists, as I will show, CA has much more to offer.


Critics of CA sometimes seem to imagine that they can locate it in opposition

to some imagined monolithic ‘feminism’, which has one single politically correct

line. In fact, it is striking that criticisms of CA are also very often equally applicable as criticisms of particular kinds of feminisms. For example, both CA and

ethnomethodological feminisms are accused of lacking a proper appreciation of

social-structural forces that constrain and shape behaviour, and of focusing

excessively on the mundane and relatively ‘trivial’ aspects of our lives at the

expense of larger systems of institutionalized power and control; and both CA

and postmodern feminism are accused of being dense and impenetrable, and of

mystifying ordinary people’s everyday experience with jargon-ridden prose. My

aim here is not to defend the ‘trivial’ or the ‘jargon-ridden’, but rather to contextualize these criticisms of CA within the ongoing feminist debates. We need

to replace a simplistic CA/feminism dichotomy with a more sophisticated

engagement with feminist discussions about the appropriate conceptualizations of

social structure and individual agency, the relationship of power to subjective

understandings, and the role of the mundane ‘micro’ events of everyday life in

relation to oppression. In what follows, I have tried to lay out some of the groundwork for those discussions to take place.



  1. CA’s Social Theory


Conversation analysis emerged in the context of, and embodies, many of the

ideas of ethnomethodology, the sociological theory developed by Garfinkel and

his collaborators in the 1960s (from which terms such as ‘member’ and ‘participant’ derive). Garfinkel (1967) rejected the dominant sociological paradigm of

his day, as articulated in the work of Talcott Parsons, which explained human

action as the result of institutionalized systems of norms, rules and values which

are internalized by individuals. For Garfinkel, this approach portrays social actors

merely as victims at the mercy of external social forces. For ethnomethodologists,

social facts such as power and oppression are accomplishments (Garfinkel,

1967); instead of being already existing ‘things’, they are processes continually

created and sustained (and resisted) through the practices of members in interaction. Ethnomethodology offered a model of people as agents, and of a social

order grounded in contingent, embodied, ongoing interpretative work – an

interest in how people do social order, rather in how they are animated by it, in

how everyday reality is produced by those engaging in it. It is, as Heritage (1984:

2) points out, ‘an important prophylactic against the mystifying consequences of

“grand theorizing” and “abstracted empiricism”’. (For more information about

the relationship between ethnomethodology and CA, see Turner’s [1974] Ethnomethodology,which includes chapters by both Sacks and Schegloff, and Psathas

[1979] for a collection of work inspired both by Garfinkel and by Sacks.) For

Harvey Sacks, the founder of CA, talk-in-interaction was simply one commonplace site of human interaction which could be studied for what it revealed about

the production of social order. Talk as such is not given any principled primacy

in CA: the key interest of CA is not in talk as language, but in talk as action –

that is, in what people do with talk. CA ‘describes methods persons use in doing

social life’ (Sacks, quoted in Psathas, 1995: 53).


It is this underlying ethnomethodological theory that is singled out by Billig

(1999: 543) as conveying ‘a participatory view of the world’, and with which he

finds himself (and thinks feminists should find ourselves) in profound disagreement. CA’s focus on the ordinary world of everyday conversation, and its use

of terms such as ‘co-conversationalist’, ‘participant’ and ‘member’ convey, says

Billig (1999: 552), ‘an essentially non-critical view of the social world’, and

support an ‘assumption that the conversational situation can be considered as a

sociologically neutral place’ (1999: 554), ‘in which equal rights of speakership

are often assumed’ (1999: 550). According to Billig, this ethnomethodological

stance makes CA incompatible with feminism at the most basic level, in what he

calls its ‘foundational rhetoric’.


Billig’s critique is not, of course, uniquely a critique of CA, but rather of the

full range of sociological approaches (ethnomethodology, symbolic interactionism, labelling theory, interpretivist approaches, social constructionism and so on)

which theorize people (including women) as active participants in the construction of the social world, and which set themselves in opposition to structural

functionalist models of the social order. In other words, it is equally a critique of

a great deal of specifically feminist work. Feminist ethnomethodology is cited in

most feminist methods texts (see Gould, 1980: 465; Reinharz, 1992) and the

approach has been used to study (for example) the construction of gender

(Kessler and McKenna, 1978; see also Crawford, 2000), mental illness (Smith,

1987), sexual harassment (Wise and Stanley, 1987) and prostitution (Davidson,

1996). Like ethnomethodological work more generally, this feminist research

uses terms such as ‘member’ and ‘participant’, and focuses on women as active

co-constructors of meaning rather than simply positing us as the predefined

victims of a heteropatriarchal social system.


One of the most sustained arguments in favour of ethnomethodology for

feminism is advanced in Stanley and Wise’s (1983) classic Breaking Out:

Feminist Consciousness and Feminist Research. Naming ethnomethodology as a

key theoretical influence, Stanley and Wise (1983: 138) celebrate the fact that

ethnomethodology’s emphasis is on ‘exactly that which is of prime importance to

feminism – a concern with the everyday and “the personal”’. They are critical of

deterministic views of social reality:


[Reality] doesn’t exist in and of itself, ‘outside of’ or ‘beneath’ everyday events

as a ‘social structure’ or ‘social force’, as depicted in traditional structural

accounts. Instead we argue that it is daily constructed by us in routine and

mundane ways, as we go about the ordinary and everyday business of living

(Stanley and Wise, 1983: 112).


And while Billig (1999: 554–6) mocks CA’s political credibility by creating a

nightmare scenario in which the verbal exchanges during a rape are analysed

by a conversation analyst who somehow fails to notice that an act of violence is

taking place, and analyses the rapist’s threats and the victim’s pleading as confirming the rules for turn-taking in conversation, Wise and Stanley (1987) apply

a (rudimentary) CA to an instance of sexual harassment in conversation. Their

aim, they say, is to:


look at some of the ‘rules’ that govern everybody’s day-to-day interactions in

conversation. In particular we look at the initiation of conversation and of

topics, ‘summons and response’ sequences, turn taking in talk and interruptions,

and opening up closings to conversations (Wise and Stanley, 1987: 155).

Sadly, the conversation they analyse is fictitious, and I am not aware of any

examples of conversation analytic work on actual instances of (what analysts

might gloss as) sexual harassment. Such research, however, is exactly what is

needed and would, as Wise and Stanley (1987: 157) suggest, show ‘how looking

at sexual harassment in detail can sharpen up our understanding, by helping us to

pinpoint exactly where and in what the intrusion of sexual harassment lies’.

Contrary to Billig’s implication, there is nothing about CA which makes it inherently unsuitable for the study of sexual harassment or other forms of sexual

violence – as the study to be reported in the next section of this article, which

deals with date rape, will make abundantly clear.


In conclusion, therefore, CA does not commit us to an ‘uncritical’ view of the

social world, but it does commit us to a broadly ethnomethodological one in

which people are understood not simply as victims of an all-powerful social order

but also as agents actively engaged in methodical and sanctioned procedures for

producing or resisting, colluding with or transgressing, the taken-for-granted

social world. Some feminists have certainly criticized ethnomethodology for

having too loose and flexible a version of power, for attributing more agency to

women than can be reconciled with the operations of heteropatriarchy, and for

offering excessively ‘individualistic’ solutions to social problems (see Wise and

Stanley, 1987: 202–8 for a somewhat exasperated response to these criticisms).

CA is potentially open to the same criticisms, but it should be noted that they are

)criticisms not of CA per se, but of particular kinds of approaches to research,

including specifically feminist approaches. Rather than counterposing some

imaginary unified ‘feminism’ on one side and CA/ethnomethodology on the

other, we need to relate CA’s social theory to, and engage with, wider feminist

and critical discussions about social structure and human agency.


2. Participant vs Analyst Orientations


Feminism has always been deeply concerned with recovering women’s own

meanings and understandings about the world. The goal of feminist social science

has been envisioned as ‘to address women’s lives and experiences in their own

terms, to create theory grounded in the actual experience and language of women’

(Du Bois, 1983: 108; emphasis in original). In much feminist research, the author

states explicitly that she is trying to avoid the imposition of her own meanings or

interpretations – that it is her participants’ voices we hear in her work, not her

own analytic preoccupations. CA makes remarkably similar claims: it ‘seeks to

remain faithful to members’ perspectives’ (Psathas, 1995: 49) and to privilege in

its analysis ‘the orientations, meanings, interpretations, understandings etc. of the

participants’ (Schegloff, 1997: 166). Here, then, we might expect a happy fit

between feminism and CA. And, indeed, CA’s concern with ‘participants’ own

orientations to the meaning making practices of everyday life’ has been described

as a ‘main reason’ for adopting it in critical psychology (Forrester, 1999: 34).


There are, however, two problems for (some) feminists with the conversation

analytic version of ‘participants’ orientations’: first, it is incompatible with the

traditional treatment of gender as a sociological variable, and second, it raises

difficulties for the analyst who ‘hears’ in the data oppressions and power abuses

not ‘oriented’ to by the participants. I will deal with these two issues separately.

First, in contradistinction to the feminist version of ‘participant orientation’,

the CA version means that neither gender nor any other sociological variable can

be considered in relation to the talk unless the participants themselves can be

shown to orient to it. Unless participants themselves make gender relevant (by

saying something like ‘Ladies last!’), then, from a CA perspective, for the

analyst to do so is to engage in what Schegloff (1997: 167) has called an act of

‘theoretical imperialism’, which imposes the analyst’s preoccupation on to the

participants’ talk. Simply the fact that the speaker is a woman is not sufficient to

justify analysing her talk as a woman, ‘because she is, by the same token, a

Californian, Jewish, a mediator, a former weaver, my wife, and many others’

(Schegloff, 1997: 165). Many CA studies do not even report the gender of

speakers: talk issues from the mouths of disembodied subjects called A, B and C.

There is a huge academic (and popular) industry – including work by many

feminists – exploring whether and how talk is constructed differently by people

of different genders and sexualities and claiming that women speak ‘in a different voice’ (Gilligan, 1982); that men ‘just don’t understand’ (Tannen, 1990); that

we are more ‘co-operative speakers’ than are men (Maltz and Borker, 1983;

Tannen, 1990); that we use tag questions (Lakoff, 1975) and minimal responses

(Fellegy, 1995) differently; that talk between lesbian couples is more symmetrical than that between heterosexual couples (Day and Morse, 1981) or that

lesbians talk differently from heterosexual women, and gay men talk differently

from straight men, in relation to pitch, grammatical variation and lexical items

(Jacobs, 1996). All of this is ‘illicit’ (Billig, 1999: 545) from a CA perspective

because it imposes the analysts’ categories (‘male’, ‘female’, ‘heterosexual’,

‘lesbian’ and so on) on the data, without troubling to show that the participants

themselves are orienting to doing gender or sexuality in the talk. Although some

researchers have drawn on CA to pursue sex-differences research (for example,

West, 1979; Holmes, 1986), to do so is undoubtedly to violate some of the most

fundamental ethnomethodological assumptions on which CA is based.


The unsuitability of CA for sex-differences research does not, however, render

it unsuitable for feminism – only for certain types of essentialist feminism. Many

feminists have been critical of sex-differences research as a feminist approach

(Kitzinger, 1994), and have increasingly emphasized the need to get ‘beyond

binary thinking’ (Bing and Bergvall, 1996) and to understand how genders (and

sexualities) are socially constructed rather than being pre-existing natural facts.


Sex-differences research presumes the already-existing a priori categories of

‘men’ and ‘women’, or ‘heterosexuals’ and ‘homosexuals’, but to take seriously

the idea that gender and sexuality are socially constructed and continually produced and reproduced in social interaction means that instead of claiming that

women talk ‘like this’ and men ‘like that’ as markers of their pre-existing identities, we need to explore how ways of talking actively produce speakers as males

or females. Rather than seeing language use as marking a gender or sexual

identity which exists prior to the act of speaking, we can understand language use

as one way of producing this identity. Instead of your talk depending on who you

already are, rather, who you are and who you are taken to be, depends on your

repeated performance over time of the talk that constitutes that identity. Instead

of ‘how do women and men talk differently?’, we can ask how particular forms

of talk contribute to the production of people as ‘women’ and as ‘men’ (Cameron,

1996). There is remarkably little conversation analytic work analysing naturalistic data in which gender and sexuality just ‘happen’ to be present, not as preexisting properties of people, nor as responses to formal questions about ‘masculinity’ and ‘femininity’, but realized, made relevant in interaction through what

Elinor Ochs (1992) has referred to as ‘indexing gender’ (but see Hopper and

LeBaron, 1998). This would be a useful approach for feminists to take. The idea

that genders and sexualities are constructed through interaction has a long intellectual history in feminism, and finds contemporary resonance in what postmodern and queer theory have referred to as ‘performativity’ (Sedgwick, 1990;

Butler, 1993). From this perspective, then, CA (while not compatible with

essentialist feminism) is entirely compatible with (indeed, offers a method for)

social constructionist, postmodern and queer theories which treat gender and

sexuality as accomplishments rather than as pre-given categories.

Second, as Billig points out, one implication of CA’s stricture to focus on

‘participant orientations’ is the prohibition of particular analytic moves predicated on the analyst’s prior categorization of speakers as ‘men’ and ‘women’:


Feminist analysts might be predisposed to ‘hear’ the operation of unequal

gender power in interchanges between men and women. Unless the participants

themselves can be heard to ‘orientate’ to gender issues, then this hearing of

gender will be illicit (or unmandated). . . . [A]nalysts must not introduce these

concerns if the participants have not done so (Billig, 1999: 545).


Suppose we, as analysts, do hear the ‘operation of unequal gender power’ in a

particular conversation, and suppose further that we have no evidence that either

conversationalist hears it that way. It could perhaps be an instance of what we

would want to label ‘sexual harassment’, but for both harasser and victim it is

treated as ‘just life’ and not oriented to as anything out of the ordinary (see

Kitzinger and Thomas, 1995; Mott and Condor, 1997 for examples). Or it could

perhaps be an instance of what we might want to label ‘heterosexism’, but for the

heterosexuals involved, it is just business as usual – they fail to notice their

heterosexual privilege in any way (see Kitzinger, 1990). So these are not

instances in which a victim protests, or a speaker notices and makes moves to

redress or to bolster an act of oppression. Instead, the surface calm of the conversation is entirely untroubled by any apparent awareness that (unequal) power

has been exercised. In this situation, what can we say – either as feminists, or as

conversation analysts? What warrant (if any) do we have for our claim that an act

of oppression has taken place, if the participants do not orient to it as such?

Conversation analysts by and large have not been particularly interested in

pursuing this question: CA usually ends with the analysis of the participants’

orientations, and as most conversation analysts do not bring their politics into

their research, that is all that is seen to be required. Feminists, by contrast, have

been quite concerned about the relationship between their (feminist) analysis of

their participants’ actions and the (generally non-feminist) way in which participants themselves interpret the same behaviours. As I have discussed elsewhere

(Kitzinger and Wilkinson, 1997), the desire to present politicized analyses of

non-politicized participants, while still somehow ‘validating their realities’, has

led to unresolved dilemmas in feminist work. Far from involving the imposition

of a new and fundamentally anti-feminist requirement, then, the emphasis on

participant orientations in CA simply presents feminists with an old problem in a

new guise.


From my own perspective, it would be unbearably limiting to use CA if it

meant that I could only describe as ‘sexist’ or ‘heterosexist’ or ‘racist’ those

forms of talk to which actors orient as such. Indeed, it is precisely the fact that

sexist, heterosexist and racist assumptions are routinely incorporated into everyday conversations without anyone noticing or responding to them that way which

is of interest to me. How is it, for example, that an unquestioned set of mundane

heterosexual assumptions regularly surface in talk in which participants do not

notice (or orient to) their own heterosexual privilege, and how does precisely this

failure to orient constitute and reconstitute heterosexist reality? These questions

can be addressed without violating the precepts of CA – as evidenced by Sacks’s

analysis of a telephone conversation between two white women, Estelle and

Jeanelle, neither of whom orients in any way to the white privilege and class

privilege, yet Sacks draws our attention to precisely these features. In the data he

presents, Estelle recounts to Jeanelle a story about driving past a shop, and

seeing two police cars there, which she interprets as doing their legitimate business of trying to prevent a ‘coloured lady’ from going ‘in the main entrance

where the silver is’. Here’s what Sacks, the founder of CA, has to say about it:

In her report there’s, e.g., no hint of any interest in stopping and helping out, or

getting worried about what’s going to happen. More importantly, there’s no hint

that she had any fear that somehow, e.g., that policeman was about to turn to her

and ask her what she was doing there. The massive comfort in her innocence,

and in that legitimate audience status that she has, is something that we should

give real attention to, in at least this way. It’s the kind of thing that we know can

be readily shaken. There are times and places where some Estelle would not feel

at all that comfortable, but, passing such a scene – and you can readily imagine

it – she would figure ‘oh my God here I am, the first thing that happens is they’re

going to figure I’m involved’. And that never dawns on our Estelle. And until it

dawns on her she can have no sense of an empathy with, e.g., a kid in the

ghetto. Her sense of innocence affects the whole way she sees the scene. . . .

What are the conditions that would lead somebody like Estelle here to at least

have it cross her mind that somebody else might see her and wonder what in the

world is Estelle doing there, or that when the cop turns around with his gun he’s

going to shoot her or tell her to halt. . . . This lady is not designing a right-wing

report. All she’s doing is reporting what she saw (Sacks, 1995: 185–6).


Precisely by giving careful attention to Estelle’s own orientation to the events she

is recounting, Sacks is able to analyse her account as an instance of mundane

ordinary everyday racism-in-action.


The CA injunction to take participants’ orientations seriously, then, raises for

feminists a familiar set of dilemmas about how to be both responsive to our

participants’ concerns and, at the same time, to develop a feminist analysis with

which they may well be in disagreement. Different feminists have resolved these

dilemmas in different ways, and some of these ways are less compatible with CA

than are others. Here, as elsewhere, the underlying principles of CA intersect in

cross-cutting ways with the various different strands of feminist research, and

need to be discussed in that context.


3. The ‘Micro–Macro’ Distinction


Feminist and critical psychologists often view conversation analysts as narrowly

focused on ‘just talk’ and as ignoring the world of social institutions and brute

force. This is also, of course, an accusation that has been levelled against

discourse analysts – but CA, even more than DA, is seen as suffering from

172 Feminism & Psychology 10(2)‘seduction with the “data”’ (Forrester, 1999: 34) and represented as nit-picking,


obsessively concerned with the minute details of in-breaths and hesitations, and

as unable to see beyond the ‘micro-’ level of the 0.2 second pause, to the ‘macro’

level of oppression. According to feminist psychologist Margaret Wetherell, ‘the

problem with conversation analysts is that they rarely raise their eyes from the

next turn in the conversation’ (Wetherell, 1998: 402). For feminists, ‘context’

means the social, cultural and historical setting within which talk takes place, the

institutional or hierarchical relationship of the people talking, and their location

in the social order. For conversation analysts, ‘context’ is often reducible to the

immediately preceding and subsequent turns in the conversation, from which,

indeed, they may rarely raise their eyes.


But then, most conversation analysts are not feminists or critical theorists

(neither, of course, are most experimentalists, or content analysts or grounded

theorists), and we cannot look to current practices and expect to see feminism

already in place. Rather, knowing that, of course, as feminists, we will inevitably

want to focus on issues of power and oppression, the appropriate question is

what, if anything, CA’s ‘micro’ perspective has to offer us in that regard.

There is nothing intrinsic to feminist or critical approaches which mandates a

cavalier attitude to the data. Feminism and careful attention to the details of talk

are not incompatible – and CA’s focus on talk finds resonance in a great deal of

feminist interest in talk and its role in the construction of genders and sexualities.


Certainly genders and sexualities are accomplished in many ways other than

through talk: through the surgeon’s knife, the queer-basher’s fist, the sexual

harasser’s leer, the ‘glass ceiling’ in the workplace and the images on the banners

and buttons at the gay pride march – but they are also produced through talk. A

feminist CA would use this focus on talk to uncover the practical reasoning

through which the taken-for-granted world is accomplished (and resisted) – the

resources members have for sustaining a social world in which there are ‘women’

and ‘men’, ‘heterosexuals’ and ‘homosexuals’, ‘normal people’ and the rest of us.


The small details of talk are important because conversation analysis has

established beyond reasonable doubt that people use the tiny details of talk

(micro-pauses, mm hms, restarts, inbreaths and the rest) to conduct and understand the course of their interactions.


A main thrust of the research here is the finding that far from its being the case

that ‘social experience [comes] at us too fast’ for adequate treatment, speakers

and hearers, with respect to the most mundane features of talk and interaction,

orient to delicate and rather complex features of the unfolding activity in what

Sacks has referred to as ‘utterance time’ (i.e. the standard pacing of talk)

(Turner, 1974: 11).


It is not that conversation analysts suddenly decided they had an absorbing

interest in micro-analysing talk and wanted to spend their lives measuring

pauses in tenths of a second, or analysing the sequential implicativeness of false

starts and hesitations, or the difference between ‘uh huh’ and ‘yes’ in back-

channel communication. It is that these apparently tiny and insignificant details

are relevant to the participants in the conversation, and systematically affect

what they do next, and how they do it. If we want to understand what people are

saying to one another, and how they come to say it, and what it means to them,

then we, as analysts, have to attend to their talk at the same level of detail that

they do. Unless we do so, we run a serious risk of doing violence to the meaning

of the data we are analysing. We can harness CA’s careful and sophisticated

description of the methods people use to do things in talk, and use them as

resources in developing our own feminist analyses.


In Conclusion . . .


In conclusion, then, I have argued that CA is clearly compatible with, and usable

for, certain kinds of feminist research. It does not fit well with sex-differences

research or with essentialist feminisms in which, for example, the assumption is

made that women’s talk is always produced by them as women and is always

structured by and bears the marks of their oppression. It is, however, compatible

with ethnomethodology, and with the later developments of social constructionism, postmodernism and queer theory, which see genders and sexualities as

produced and reproduced through ordinary, everyday interactions – including

conversation. This makes CA a useful technique for understanding how, in our

ordinary, mundane interactions, we produce the social order we inhabit – in other

words, how we ‘do’ power and powerlessness, oppression and resistance. Billig

(1999: 550) is simply wrong in his claim that CA presumes ‘equal rights of

speakership’. As Schegloff points out, it ‘does not presume an equalitarian

society, but merely allows one’ – and it also allows for inequalities, such that

ordinary conversation:


can thereby become a canvas on which the practices end up having painted a

picture of inequality, or exclusion, or oppression, or asymmetry without a sense

of oppression . . . Those who take conversation or other talk in interaction to be

basically an arena of oppression should undertake to show that; the available

tools of analysis do not preclude that showing (Schegloff, 1999: 564; emphasis

in original).


CA does not preclude demonstrations of social inequality or power abuses, but

it requires of the analyst a rather different approach to such demonstration than is

current in much contemporary feminist psychological research. Harvey Sacks in

fact provides such a demonstration in one of his earliest papers, first delivered as

a lecture in 1966 and published in 1972. It revolves around a phrase which anyone who has spent much time around children will recognize as an opening

gambit: ‘you know what, Daddy?’ or ‘you know something, Mummy?’. Sacks

analysed this phrase as a way in which children employ what later came to be

called ‘sequence organization’ precisely in order to deal with their problem of

having unequal rights to talk. That is, a common response to the question ‘you

know what?’ is another question (notably ‘what?’), and, as Sacks observed, a

person who has been asked a question (like ‘what?’) should properly speak at the

next available slot, and reply to that question. So, by asking ‘you know what?’, a

child is manoeuvring a parent into assigning him or her the right (indeed, the

obligation) to speak – and on an open topic, since the answer to ‘what?’ in this

context can be whatever the child takes to be an answer, which provides him or

her with the opportunity to say whatever he or she wanted to say in the first place,

but now not on his or her own say-so, but as a matter of obligation. Sacks used

this analysis to observe that

kids take it that they have restricted rights which consist of a right to begin, to

make a first statement and not much more. Thereafter they proceed only if

requested to. And if that is their situation as they see it, they surely have evolved

a nice solution to it (Sacks, 1972: 231).


There are several important points about this analysis as they bear upon feminist concerns with rights, power and oppression. First, it uses an early formulation of the classic CA discovery of ‘sequence organization’ (here, reducible to the

idea that if you are asked a question, the next sequentially relevant thing is to give

an answer), and it uses that foundational CA discovery to talk about the operation

of power and privilege in conversation, in the family home. Second, the restricted

rights of children are not here an abstract theoretical concept, but are made

visible through the concrete practices of social members in interaction. Anyone

who doubts that children have restricted rights to talk is now faced with the task

of explaining why it is that this particular practice occurs. And it would not be

difficult to develop the analysis (although Sacks does not) to show that adults

know perfectly well that ‘you know what, Mummy?’ is a bid to speak which is

why, instead of answering the question with ‘what?’ (first part of an adjacency

pair), they say things such as ‘not now, Sally’. In other words, it is the social

members (parents and children themselves) and not the analyst who demonstrate,

through their practices, that children’s rights to talk are unequal, and that this

particular practice has evolved as a way in which children try to resist that

inequality. This kind of analysis does not depend on an a priori theory of

children’s oppression which is imposed by the analyst on the data. Instead,

children’s inequality is visible in, and produced and reproduced through, the

mundane practices of social members. Finally, a conversation analytic approach

permits, as a social structural one does not, a proper appreciation of resistance

and subversion. As Sacks says of children, ‘they sure have evolved a nice

solution’. As feminists and queer theorists have repeatedly emphasized of late,

women, lesbians, gay men, and bisexual and transgendered folk are not simply

victims of an overarching heteropatriarchal world order. We also resist and subvert it – and, of course, we are also sometimes complicit with the very processes

by which we are oppressed. CA offers the opportunity to render concepts such as

‘resistance’ and ‘complicity’ less opaque than they sometimes seem in some postmodern theorizing, and instead to reveal them as concrete practices visible in talk

see Kitzinger, 2000 for a conversation analysis of ‘resistance’ in the talk of

breast cancer patients).


CONVERSATION ANALYSIS AND DATE RAPE: JUST SAY NO?


There is a substantial feminist social science literature which finds that young

women report difficulty in refusing unwanted sex, and which concludes that

many instances of date rape are the result of women not communicating clearly

the fact that they do not want sex (for example, Campbell and Barnlund, 1977;

Howard, 1985; Warzak and Page, 1990). Indeed, victims of sexual assault often

report feeling that they ‘failed to make their refusal sufficiently clear’, and 45 percent of the young women in one recent study reported that they lacked effective

refusal skills (Warzak et al., 1995). My co-researcher, Hannah Frith (on whose

doctoral work this analysis is based), ran focus group discussions with young

women between the ages of 16 and 18 and overwhelmingly they said the same

sort of thing:


You’ve sat there and all through it you’ve been thinking ‘I don’t want to do this,

I should have said no, I should have stopped him before, and I can’t stop him

now, because we’re half way through the swing of it all, and I’m just so stupid.

Next time I’m just going to sort it all out . . .’ But you never do. . . . You don’t

want to hurt their feelings . . . . I really try and avoid ever having to be in the

situation of having to say to somebody, ‘look no I’m sorry’ . . . I wouldn’t

really risk to have a sort of flirty jokey sort of conversation with someone that I

don’t know very well in case they suddenly just say, ‘OK, how about it’, and

then it would be like ‘uuuuuhhhhhh!’


Young women who say things like this are diagnosed, in the social science

literature, as suffering from low self-esteem, lack of assertiveness (McConnch,

1990) or as having internalized traditionally feminine gender role expectations

such as passivity, submissiveness, nurturance and acquiescence to male needs

(Murnen et al., 1989). They have typically been viewed as prime candidates for

‘refusal skills’ training – a range of procedures common to many date rape prevention, assertiveness training and social skills programmes for young women,

which aim to teach them to ‘just say no’ clearly, directly and unapologetically.

Such programmes aim ‘to provide women with the skills to avoid victimization by

learning to say “no” effectively’ (Kidder et al., 1983) and they are backed up by a

whole range of literature (both self-help and professional) offering advice on how

to be assertive in refusing sex, and thereby safe from date rape.


There are many criticisms that one could make of this advice (and we have

made them elsewhere, Frith and Kitzinger, 1997) – for example, the assumption

that rape is somehow women’s fault for not communicating properly, that rape is

the result of miscommunication (rather than a blatant exercise of male power) and

that date rape could be ended by teaching women to talk differently. Here, how-

)ever, I want to concentrate on a different form of criticism – drawn from CA.


(Note that this study – a detailed account of which is published as Kitzinger and

Frith, 1999 – uses the CA literature, but does not involve us in actually doing any

CA.)


The people who develop these programmes and write this literature have

clearly never read any CA. They assume, for a start, that there is some problem

with young women who find refusals difficult actions to perform – that they are

different from the rest of us (who supposedly have more confidence, higher selfesteem, a better sense of our own worth, and are properly attentive to our own

needs). And they advise young women that refusals are best accomplished

through plain, unvarnished ‘noes’. For example:

It is crucial that you give a simple ‘no’ rather than a long-winded statement filled

with excuses, justifications, and rationalizations about why you are saying ‘no’.

It is enough that you do not want to do this, simply because you do not want to

do it (Phelps and Austin, 1987: 123–4).


Many books recommend repeated ‘noes’ (the cracked record technique, Phelps

and Austin, 1987) and may labour the point that refusals should not normally be

accompanied by explanations. Writing for physicans concerned to help teenagers

to postpone sexual involvement, one author counsels them to ‘emphasise to

young teenagers that they have the right to say no’ and to ‘reinforce the idea that

they do not have to give a reason or explanation’: they should just ‘say “no” and

keep repeating it’ (Howard, 1985: 87).


When we looked at the CA literature for descriptions of how refusals are actually done, we found it completely at variance with these prescriptions. What the

CA literature on ‘dispreferreds’ shows, based on analysis of naturally occurring

conversations in which people either accept or refuse invitations (or offers, or

proposals or whatever), is that acceptances and refusals follow very different

patterns. Acceptances do, indeed, often involve ‘just saying yes’, but refusals

very rarely involve ‘just saying no’. 


Here are some ‘acceptances’:1


A: Why don’t you come up and see me some[time

B: [I would like to

(Atkinson and Drew, 1979: 58).

A: We:ll, will you help me [ou:t.

B: [I certainly wi:ll.

(Davidson, 1984: 116).


By contrast, refusals are much more complicated phenomena.


Refusal 1


Mark: We were wondering if you wanted to come over Saturday, f’r dinner.

(0.4)

Jane: Well (.) .hh it’d be great but we promised Carol already.

(Potter and Wetherell, 1987: 86).


Refusal 2


A: Uh if you’d care to come and visit a little while this morning I’ll give you a

cup of coffee.

B: hehh Well that’s awfully sweet of you. I don’t think I can make it this

morning. .hh uhm I’m running an ad in the paper and-and uh I have to stay

near the phone.

(Atkinson and Drew, 1979: 58).


CA shows that refusals are routinely designed to incorporate at least some of

the following features:


(i) Delays – for example, pauses and hesitations, like the four-tenths of a

second pause in Refusal 1 and the filled pause (hehh) in Refusal 2.

(ii) Prefaces or hedges – such as uh, um or well.

(iii) Palliatives – for example, appreciations, apologies, token agreements and so

on, which seem designed to alleviate the pain caused by the refusal – compliments such as ‘it’d be great’ (in Refusal 1) or ‘that’s awfully sweet of

you’ in Refusal 2 are typical. Other palliatives include accompanying a

refusal with a delayed acceptance (‘not today, but tomorrow’) or with the

offer of an alternative (‘I can’t come round to your place, but why don’t you

come to me?’)


(iv) Accounts – that is, explanations, justifications or excuses for why the invitation isn’t being accepted – such as a prior engagement or commitment in

both of the examples above. It is also common for people to present accounts

that suggest that it is not that they’re choosing not to accept the invitation –

it is that they cannot (they’re unable, rather than unwilling) and for refusals

to be qualified or mitigated in some way (as in ‘I don’t think I can make it

this morning’).


So CA shows us that if young women find it difficult to give clear, immediate

direct ‘noes’ in sexual situations, that might be because that is not how refusals

are normatively done. Refusals are usually delayed, indirect and accompanied

by palliatives or accounts, and simply saying no is often experienced as rude or

hostile. Our first finding, then, is that refusal skills training programmes seem to

be offering advice that does not adequately capture the reality of how refusals are

done.


Now, the data we have collected are tape-recorded interactions in which young

women talk about doing refusals, not in which such refusals were actually being

done, and we have analysed these data using discourse analysis to explore how

these particular accounts are constructed interactionally by young women who

are doing various things other than simply faithfully reporting their experiences

of sexual negotiation to the focus group moderator. In various publications we

have shown how they manage issues of reputation, how they display themselves

as sexually knowledgeable and competent actors (but not ‘sluts’) and how they

position themselves as emotionally literate and strong, compared with their male

partners (for example, Frith and Kitzinger, 1998; Frith, 1999). From a CA per-

spective, though, it is worth noting that, although young women do not, of course,

use terms such as ‘dispreferred’ or ‘palliative’, their talk about refusals does

embody a lay version of conversation analytic discoveries. When asked why they

don’t ‘just say no’, they explain that that would feel ‘rude’ or ‘foolish’, and they

describe the ‘best’ explanations or excuses as those which assert their inability

rather than their unwillingness to engage in sex (illness, menstruation, a parent’s

imminent arrival home, not having contraception). They say that it is a good idea

to qualify or mitigate refusals in some way (‘one way is not to say no as in you

never want to, but no as in not now’, or ‘I’m not ready yet, can we wait a while’,

or ‘I want to keep it for a special time’). And they explicitly state that it is a good

idea to offer (what conversation analysts call) palliatives in refusing sex: ‘well

it’s very flattering of you to ask’ or ‘you’re a really nice guy and I do like you,

but . . .’). This contrasts sharply with the date rape prevention literature on refusal

skills, which emphasizes ‘I have a right to say no without explaining my reasons’

(Muehlenhard et al., 1989), models statements of unwillingness rather than

inability as paradigmatic assertive behaviour (‘I just don’t want to’, Smith, 1975)

and actively advises against offering accounts or palliatives:


Telling the man that you do not want to have sex by saying things like ‘I really

don’t know if we should do this’, ‘not now, can’t we wait’ or ‘I really like you

but I’m not sure’ is not effective. All these statements can be misconstrued as

meaning that you need a little more urging to become cooperative (Wiseman,

1994: 65).


So our second finding is that these young women are already able to articulate

some of what conversation analysts have discovered about how refusals are

normatively done, and they use the knowledge they have about doing refusals to

criticize and to resist the advice to ‘just say no’.


Furthermore, CA has important implications for refusal skills training programmes based on the slogan ‘just say no’ because it demonstrates conclusively

that it is not necessary to say ‘no’ in order to refuse an invitation or request

effectively, and to have a refusal heard as a refusal. Neither of the two refusals

quoted above contains the word ‘no’. In fact, one of the most potent indicators of

a refusal is a short delay in responding. Here are some of the classic examples

from CA in which speakers, hearing the silences that follow their requests or

invitations, indicate that they are anticipating refusals:


C: So I was wondering would you be in your office on Monday (.) by any

chance?

(2.0)

Probably not.

(Levinson, 1983: 320).

R: What about coming here on the way

(.)

Or doesn’t that give you enough time?

(Levinson, 1983: 335).

C: Well you can both stay.

(0.4)

Got plenty a’ room.

(Davidson, 1984: 10).


Palliatives are also often heard as refusals in and of themselves. In one example

(Antaki, 1994: 81), someone responds to a lunch invitation by saying:


N: Well, you’re real sweet, hon:, uh::m


That is all he says, but it is enough to constitute an implied refusal – the person

making the invitation comes in next with ‘or do you have something else’. If in

everyday conversation a simple palliative is heard as implying refusal, then

young women who respond to sexual invitations with palliatives such as ‘well I

do like you’ or ‘it’s flattering to be asked’ should likewise be heard as implying

refusal, especially if these responses are preceded by a couple of tenths of a

second of silence. Furthermore, in ordinary naturally occurring conversation,

weak agreements (such as half-hearted ‘yeahs’ or ‘uh huhs’) are often heard and

reacted to as if they imply disagreement or refusal. For example:


A: .hhhhh Uh will you call ‘im tunight for me,=

B: =eYea:h

(.)

A: Plea::se,

(Davidson, 1984: 113).


So, CA shows us that refusals do not have to be – in fact, generally are not –

emphatic, direct and immediate ‘noes’. They are signalled by relatively subtle

cues such as pauses, palliatives and even weak agreements. It is not normally

necessary to say no to be heard as refusing – pausing, hedging, producing a

palliative and even delayed or weak acceptances, are typically understood as

refusals. So it seems that young women responding to unwanted sexual pressure

are using absolutely normal conversational patterns for refusals. That is, they

apparently find it impossible to ‘just say no’; they pause, hedge, compliment the

man, offer excuses, sometimes even refuse sex with the kinds of ‘yes’s’ which are

normatively understood as meaning ‘no’. The feminist and date rape prevention

literatures present refusals of this kind as inadequate and insufficiently communicative. We offer a different explanation.


If there is an organized and normative way of doing refusal, which provides for

culturally understood ways in which ‘maybe later’ or ‘I do like you but . . .’

means ‘no’, then men who claim not to have understood are claiming to be

cultural dopes and playing rather disingenuously on how refusals are usually

done and understood to be done. They are claiming not to understand perfectly

normal conversational interaction and laying claim to an implausible and clearly

self-interested ignorance of normative conversational patterns. As feminists, we

have allowed men, disingenuously claiming not to understand these normative

conversational conventions, to set the agenda, such that we have accepted the

need to educate women to produce refusals that men cannot claim to have ‘misunderstood’. The date rapist’s self-interested capacity for misunderstanding will

always outstrip young women’s earnest attempts to explain. On the basis of this

analysis we suggest that the insistence of date rape educators on the importance

of just saying no is counter-productive in that it requires women to engage in conversationally abnormal actions and allows rapists to persist in their claim that, if

a woman hasn’t actually said no (in the right tone of voice with the right body

language), then she hasn’t actually refused to have sex with him.


CONVERSATION ANALYSIS AND COMING OUT: OR HOW TO COME OUT

WITHOUT ANYONE NOTICING


Lesbian and gay psychology has produced an enormous literature on ‘coming

out’ to others as lesbian, gay, bisexual or as having (had) same-sex sexual experiences. There is substantial quantitative research in which coming out to others

(or, more accurately, self-report of having come out to others on some kind of

questionnaire measures or ‘disclosure scales’) is correlated with self-esteem,

mental health or levels of social support (for example, Schachar and Gilbert,

1983; Franke and Leary, 1991), generating findings such as ‘the more widely a

woman disclosed her sexual orientation the less anxiety, more positive affectivity, and greater self-esteem she reported’ (Jordan and Deluty, 1998: 41–2). In

quantitative research such as this, the experience of ‘coming out’ is subordinated

to an investigation of its psychological and social sequelae. Qualitative work on

coming out relies overwhelmingly on retrospective self-report: lesbians and gay

men are asked, in interviews, to describe how they came out, and this is usually

taken as a (more or less) adequate reflection of how their coming out was

actually done (for example, Edgar, 1994; Cain, 1996). This naturalistic approach

to ‘coming out’ stories treats interviewees as informants transparently revealing

truths about themselves and their world – ‘telling it how it really was’ (for

example, Gagné et al., 1997; Shakespeare, 1999). Other work treats retrospective

self-report as a form of sexual story telling (for example, Plummer, 1995) and

investigates them for their ‘narrative iconicity’ (Wood, 1997) or ‘creation of coherence’ (Liang, 1997). What does not exist in the lesbian and gay psychology

literature is any study in which ‘coming out’ – the act of disclosure itself – is the

primary data source, that is in which ‘coming out’ is actually captured as a live

event.


By accident, I happen to have (so far) 12 instances of ‘coming out’ on audiotape. They come from a variety of sources including focus groups and training

sessions, but most (including the two presented here) are taken from small group

seminar sessions with undergraduate students, run as part of the ‘Human

Sexualities’ module at Loughborough University, recorded, with students’ signed

permission and informed consent, for ongoing research by several members of

the department on how sexuality is produced through talk.2 My interest, as a

feminist, in this coming out data was initially prompted by what seemed to be a

bewildering absence of response to the ‘comings out’ on the part of the audience

(including, in four cases, me). In what I’ve come to think of as the mundane form

of everyday coming out for people in relatively safe environments, nobody

expresses disgust, talks about hell fire and damnation, or accuses anyone of being

a disgusting pervert – but equally, nobody says ‘congratulations!’ or ‘that’s

wonderful’, or even gives any indication that they’ve registered the information.


And yet I know from other discussions with the students who were coming out in

these settings, or who had been the audiences for the comings out of others, that

these were intensely important experiences. Coming out was extensively discussed beforehand, experienced as important and significant at the time, and considered newsworthy enough to report to other people afterwards – and yet, at the

time the coming out was being done, nobody (me included) reacted to it in this

way. There is virtually nothing in the lesbian and gay research literature which

addresses the issue of lack of response, nor is there any consideration by feminist

or critical psychologists about the political implications of these ‘non-responses’

to coming out. These, then, are the data extracts to which I am currently applying

CA techniques in an attempt to gain a better understanding of how coming out is

achieved and reacted to.


In this first example, I am leading a seminar discussion on intersexuality and

the students are discussing how they would feel if they learned that someone

they were attracted to was intersex, and the implications of that for their sexual

identities. In this context, an undergraduate (‘Linda’) comes out as having found

herself attracted to a woman a few years before. Other than a few ‘mms’ in

response to this information, neither I nor any student in the group gives any reaction at all – and I’ve cropped the transcript at the point where I launch into an

account of sexual script theory.


Linda Comes Out


01 Kate: I think it would change y- your concept of (0.2)

02 of (.) w- what it is that attracts you to somebody

03 (0.2) and i- their sex would n-not not be that feature,

04 perhaps¿

05 (1.0)

06 Kate: Have I explained what I mean? I’m not sure whether I’ve

07 said what I me(hh)an.

08 CK: So y- (0.4) inst- (.) I mean, >I think a lot of lesbians

09 and gay people use that argument anyway which is that

10 it’s not< (.)

11 Kate: [mmm]

12 CK: [ t h e ] sex, it’s the person [I think]

13 Kate: [Yeah, I]

14 think my brain w’ld, it’d do it that way.=

15 Linda: =It does, it does have an effect on you because (0.2)

182 Feminism & Psychology 10(2)16 if you’ve thought of yourself as heterosexual (1.0)

17 and you (.) >suddenly find yourself attracted to a woman

18 ºit happened to me,< (0.2) a few years agoº

19 it’s very (0.8) disturbing, [in a] way it’s=

20 CK: [mm ]

21 Linda: =it’s (0.2) makes you very anxious (.)

22 because you then don’t know how you’re supposed to respond=

23 CK: =mm[mm=

24 Linda: = [and (.) if you e- found out that your partner was an

25 intersex you would wonder (.) >how do I respond to this

26 person sexually< I don’t know (.) how to approach, how

27 to be romantic how to (.) what this person expects

28 from me, whereas if you (.) think of- you know of

29 yourself as heterosexual, then you know (0.2) the

30 responses you know how to interact.

31 [So it’s those kind of]

32 CK: [There’s a sort of set of] guidelines, aren’t there,

33 ?: mmm

34 CK: for how to (.) how to do sexual interaction


In this extract, then, Linda tells us that she was sexually attracted to a woman a

few years ago, and it creates barely a ripple on the surface of the conversation

about intersex.


In the second example, it is the teaching assistant running the seminar discussion (‘Pat’) who comes out as having been heterosexual and now being lesbian.

The extract is taken from about half an hour into the seminar, and students are

supposed to be evaluating different theories of sexuality: as the extract opens, Pat

is discussing the criteria upon which they might base this evaluation. Again,

there’s apparently no response at all – and I’ve cropped the extract at the point at

which the students move off into a discussion about conversion therapies for

homosexuality.


Pat Comes Out


01 Pat: So: (0.4) um, (0.4) th- that’s another thing to kind of

02 think about t- and to be aware of when you’re kind of

03 evaluating different theories of (.) of of sexuality

04 is y’know (.) is it explaining simply who

05 people chose to (.) or who people have sex with (.)

06 or is it explaining (.) .hh you know I mean what people

07 often refer as a kind of a lifestyle, y’know,

08 how they live their lives, who they live with and so on.

09 .hhh um (2.0) I mean living (0.4) living with a woman is

10 quite different from living with a ma:n I think. (0.2)

11 I mean, I’ve been heterosexual and I’m now lesbian

12 and I certainly experience being in a relationship with

13 a woman as very different from being in a relationship

14 with a man .hhh and (.) it’s not just kind of hinged around

15 (0.4) kind of the sex and who you’re sleeping with

16 <there’s a whole kind of (.) there’s a whole big aspect of

17 sexuality and sexual identity that I think theories often

18 (.) miss out on and they reduce it to questions of who

19 you’re sleeping with and not >you know< more broadly who you

20 are um (.) oka:y, w- what evidence is there that sexuality

21 can change?

22 (0.2)

23 Dave: There was that Exodus thing

24 Pat: uh huh

25 Dave: um (0.2) it’s like a christian organisation I think that

26 focuses on the fact that um homosexuality is a sin (.)

27 Pat: uh huh


Many of Harvey Sacks’s Lectures on Conversation are devoted to explorations

of how people methodically achieve recognizable conversational actions without

paying some negative price associated with them: how to avoid giving your name

without refusing to give it; how to avoid giving help without refusing it; how to

get help without requesting it; how to talk in a therapy session without revealing

yourself. Part of what my analysis suggests is that many of us have developed a

technique which could be called ‘How to come out without anybody noticing’.


CA asks that we understand these ‘coming out’ utterances not only as a matter

of information transfer from the person coming out to their co-conversationalists,

but also as actions in interactional sequence. Conveying new information is not

the same thing as announcing news: not all new information conveyed is set up

by speakers to be treated as news by the person to whom it is told. There is, for

example, a substantial CA literature on breaking ‘bad news’ (for example, of

serious diagnoses and deaths), which shows a range of devices used to avoid one

person being heard to tell another bad news, while also ensuring that the information is imparted. In ordinary conversation, news telling can be organized so

that the recipient, rather than the bearer of the news, ends up pronouncing it

(Schegloff, 1988) and clinicians presenting parents with a diagnosis of mental

retardation in their child use particular strategies to present the diagnosis as a

simple ‘confirmation’ of something the parent already knows (Maynard, 1992).


So, although the comings out I have collected do, as it happens, convey new

information to the listeners about the speakers’ sexuality, the first thing to

observe, from a CA perspective, is that speakers are not doing ‘news announcement’. Undoubtedly, there are some comings out which do news announcement,

and which we can recognize as such: they begin with classic phrases (preannouncements) like ‘Mum, I’ve got something to tell you’, or ‘Guess what? I’m

gay.’ News announcement normatively makes relevant from the recipient an

acknowledgement of news receipt and assessment of the information so conveyed. When ‘comings out’ are done as news announcement, then, they would

make relevant assessments which can be anything from ‘Oh no! it’ll kill your

father’ to ‘Oh, that’s wonderful, I’m so pleased for you’. But Linda, Pat and the

other 10 comings out I am analysing are not doing news announcements. Instead,

information about the speaker’s sexuality is conveyed as an aside, as a list item

or as a passing instance or illustration of some other point altogether. Not presenting information about one’s sexuality as news has decisive consequences for

shaping the course of the talk’s development. If it is not announced as news,

recipients have to work hard to receive it as such.


There’s something else, though, about the construction of this coming out talk

which makes audience response to it as news unlikely, and that’s the location of

the information in the turn-taking organization. Turn-taking organization is one

of those classic areas of CA with which feminists and other radicals are often

most impatient – but it offers a powerful tool for understanding why it is that

these recipients of comings out do not react. Information about the speaker’s

sexuality is often deeply embedded within turn constructional units in ways

that would render as interruptive any acknowledgement or assessment of this

information from a co-conversationalist.


In Sacks et al.’s (1974) classic paper on turn-taking, they propose a model for

conversation which seeks to explain the practices people use for ensuring – with

systematic and orderly exceptions explainable by the theory itself – how it is that

people in conversation overwhelmingly speak one at a time. The model proposes

the existence of turn constructional units (TCUs), which can be whole sentences,

phrases or sometimes just words, but which are recognizable (in context) as

potentially constituting a complete turn. Each speaker is initially entitled to just

one of these: after that, another speaker has the right (sometimes the obligation) to

speak next. The model is complex and sophisticated and I have oversimplified it

radically, but the key point of relevance here is that the turn-taking organization is

not indifferent to the size of the turns parties take: rather, its ‘underlying (though

supercessable) organization is designed to minimize turn size’ (Schegloff, 1982:

73) and consequently we need to understand long turns, with lengthy and/or

multiple TCUs, as ‘achievements and accomplishments’ (Schegloff, 1982: 73)

which have overcome the inherent bias of the system.


In the coming out episodes, the speaker, the one who is coming out, uses long

TCUs, and many TCUs – and as CA shows us, that is something which has to be

worked at: it does not just happen. Conversation analysts have documented some

of the techniques people use when they want to keep speaking for a long time.

Long TCUs can be accomplished by using particular sentence structures (such as

‘if/then’) which are hearably not complete until a second part of the sentence

(such as the ‘then’ part) has been produced. People can project a long TCU

simply by taking a big in-breath: studies show that in-breaths put hearers on the

alert for a long (possibly multi-unit) turn. Multi-unit turns can be secured at the

beginning of a speaker’s turn by making a bid to tell a story (‘did you hear about

the time when . . .); by using a list launcher (‘four things . . .’); and by using

‘markedly first verbs’ (such as ‘I thought . . .’ or ‘I tried . . .’, which are regularly

used to mark things incorrectly thought, or unsuccessfully tried, and therefore

project accounts of what is now known, or an account of failure). Speakers may

also employ methodical devices for achieving multi-unit turns during the course

of their talk. They may ‘rush through’ a possible transition point – talking right

through the intersection between one TCU and the next, not pausing to take a

breath until a point of maximum grammatical control (that is, where it is obvious

that the speaker is not complete). Even more radically, speakers sometimes

prevent the end of a TCU (and hence possible speaker transition) from occurring

simply by not uttering the last word or syllable of the TCU. (For all this, and more,

see Schegloff, 1982.) Although critics have poured scorn on the turn-taking

organization research as a tedious political irrelevance which (as in Billig’s rape

example) could only obscure the operation of power, Schegloff (1999: 563) has

said that ‘those committed to analyzing forms of inequality and oppression in

interaction might do better to harness this account of turn-taking organization as

a resource for their undertaking than to complain of it as an ideological distraction’ (emphasis in original). And that is exactly what we can do here.


If we look back at Linda’s coming out, we see that she embeds her coming out

in the middle of an ‘if/then’ structure (‘if you’ve thought of yourself as heterosexual . . .’ [line 16]/‘[then] it’s very disturbing’ [line 19] – although the ‘then’

isn’t actually spoken) which projects the first possible transition place to well

after her coming out. In addition, at line 19, at exactly the point where the TCU

is reaching possible completion, and speaker transition becomes relevant, she

augments it with another unit which acts as a ‘pivot’ to get her across the transition place from the end of one TCU to the beginning of the next. The pivot (‘in a

way’, line 19) is both the last part of one TCU and the beginning of the next TCU:

‘it’s very disturbing in a way’/‘In a way it’s it’s makes you very anxious’. By

using the pivot to get her across the possible transition space, Linda again postpones her co-conversationalists’ opportunity to offer any acknowledgement or

appraisal of the information she has imparted. After using an ‘and’ (line 24) to

indicate ‘still not finished’, she then launches another TCU which again uses an

if/then structure (and a listing device) to maximally extend the turn. By the time

CK, who is leading the seminar group, comes in at the next possible transition

place – and note that even here Linda keeps talking (lines 31 and 32 are in

overlap) – it is far too late to respond to ‘it happened to me a few years ago’. In

sum, Linda actively uses the turn-taking organization of conversation to extend

her turn beyond her coming out moment to decrease the likelihood of anyone

offering an assessment of, or any other response to, it. And in fact no one

does.


We see a similar example of an extended turn construction in Pat’s talk. She

begins by making a general point about the difference between living with a

woman and living with a man, and her ‘coming out’ is nicely embedded as a sort

of ‘take me, for instance’, following which she continues her turn, filling the

relevant slot in which the recipient would otherwise be expected to respond, with

a clearly audible in-breath and an ‘and’ (line 14) which indicates that she is not

yet finished, so warding off challenge, questions or assessment, and subsequently

pausing only at places in her talk which are clearly grammatically incomplete

(lines 15, 16 and 18). At lines 19–20, she reaches the projectable end of her TCU

‘and not more broadly who you are’ – and intonationally it is clear that some

)ending is required (such as ‘spending your life with’, for example). But Pat

doesn’t supply any ending: she simply fails to complete her TCU (thereby avoiding possible speaker transition relevance), signals topic change with an ‘oka:y’,

and asks a question – which makes sequentially relevant an answer to the

question so posed, and not any comments, questions or assessment related to her

earlier statement that she’s ‘been heterosexual’ and is ‘now lesbian’. Like Linda,

Pat uses the turn-taking system of conversation to make discussion of her coming out unlikely. And, indeed, nobody does discuss it. As with Linda’s coming

out, it is not treated as a noticeable, commentable-on piece of information.


So, what political relevance can be derived from this conversation analysis of

the turn-taking structure of coming out talk? Linda and Pat (and others in data not

presented here) are coming out, but they are using the turn-taking organization to

avoid their sexuality becoming topicalized, and they are conveying the information about their sexuality in a ‘not news’ format (as an instance or example of

something else). The design of these comings out is attentive to, and hence can

be used to explore, the conditions of our oppression in (at least) two ways.


First, they are attentive to the accusation of ‘flaunting it’ – to the complaint ‘I

don’t mind gays but why must they be so blatant?’. Their construction as ‘not

news’, as conversational asides, and their embeddedness in long turns, is

designed precisely not to flaunt, not to draw attention to, not to make an issue of

it – to slip it into the conversation so as to make it public, but in a way that is

demonstrably relevant to the conversation, displayed as being an instance or

piece of evidence in support of some other point. Another reason why coming out

might be done in this way is to mark some kind of resistance to the whole idea of

coming out, to the notion that it should be necessary; that unless we announce as

newsworthy our difference from a presumed heterosexual norm, then we can

legitimately be assumed to be heterosexual. As recent theorists have suggested,

there is a sense in which coming out colludes with the notion that before we came

out, we were hiding, and that in letting other people know our sexuality, we are

revealing the past deception of the closet. By making lesbianism an aside, an

instance, a deliberately casual exemplar of something else, these young women

may be invoking and constructing the notion that that’s indeed all it is (or all it

should be), that – in fact – there is nothing of note to ‘flaunt’. Coming out in a

way that clearly avoids ‘flaunting’ sexuality as a newsworthy, commentable-on

piece of information can be seen, then, both as collusion with the heterosexual

imperative not to be public about our sexuality, and equally as a resistance to the

whole notion that our sexuality can be assumed to be heterosexual unless we

announce to the contrary.


Second, there’s a protective element in these comings out: they are both

protective of others and self-protective. By embedding information about the

speaker’s sexuality in the middle of turn construction units, or in following them

with multiple TCUs, speakers protect the recipients from having to produce a

response. Both the location of the information, and its structure as ‘not news’ (as

an aside, or instance), provides for recipients to hear it and yet not to have to

deal with it there and then. Hearers are insulated by subsequent talk against the

potential shock value of the information they are receiving. It is a way in which

speakers protect others from being potentially crass recipients of the delicate

information conveyed – and, of course, protect themselves from having to deal

with such potentially crass responses. In continuing to analyse these data, I hope

to develop a better understanding of the politics of coming out in everyday

situations.


DOING FEMINIST CA


Feminists have used a variety of different approaches for developing theory and

practice in relation both to date rape and to coming out as lesbian. The social

science literature on both topics includes a great deal of qualitative work

(analysed using thematic analysis, discourse analysis, grounded theory, narrative

approaches and so on) as well as feminist surveys, questionnaires, tests and

experiments. What unites these disparate studies as ‘feminist’ – across a range

of different epistemological, methodological and ontological assumptions – is

their commitment to creating social and political change. In this article, I have

demonstrated that CA, too, can be used for feminist purposes.


As we have seen, ‘the trouble with conversation analysis . . .’, according to

feminist and radical critics, is threefold: its (ethnomethodological) social theory;

its emphasis on participant rather than analyst orientations; and its attention on

the micro-details of interaction. In applying CA to date rape, and to coming out,

I have illustrated how these alleged ‘troubles’ are in fact strengths which enable

the development of a clearly feminist analysis.


First, the social theory of CA means that my analyses were based on an

ethnomethodological concern with members’ methods for doing refusals, or

doing ‘coming out’, as that knowledge is displayed in action – that is, through

what they actually say and do. Whether ‘doing refusal’ or ‘doing coming out’,

women are conceptualized as active agents, and as participants in the social

world, rather than simply as victims of heteropatriarchal structures.


Second, in line with the CA focus on ‘participant orientations’, neither analysis

is framed up as a sex- (or sexualities-) differences study: by contrast, I assumed

that cultural ‘members’ (male and female) understand refusals in the same way;

nor did I seek to make comparisons between (say) bisexual vs lesbian comings

out, or undergraduate vs teaching assistant comings out. Instead of subordinating

the data analysis to already existing a priori categories of gender, sexuality or

other dimensions of social power, the aim was to explore how genders, sexualities

and power are accomplished in interaction. The studies show how actions

(refusals or comings out) are actively designed in relation to the actions of others

– and in the design of those actions, and in others’ responses to them, we as

analysts can see the everyday (sexist and heterosexist) world under construction.

In feminist CA, oppression and resistance are not simply abstract theoretical

concepts but become visible as concrete practices (like ‘misunderstanding’, or

‘not doing news announcement’) of social members in interaction. In the

‘coming out’ data, for example – as in Sacks’s Estelle and Jeanelle example –

nothing much happens, and it is precisely how it is that nothing much gets to

happen, how the conversation is constructed as ‘business as usual’ which provides

the analytic interest.


Finally, these analyses would simply not have been possible without a finegrained analysis of the data at the level of which participants themselves produce

and respond to the talk. The conversation analytic work on ‘dispreferreds’,

sequence organization and turn-taking requires analysts to be sensitive to micropauses, in-breaths, intonational changes and other small details of talk, because

these are relevant to the participants and are part of the mundane way in which

the social order is routinely produced and reproduced.

In conclusion, I hope I have made a case for including CA among our array of

analytic approaches. As feminists we need to understand and to counter overt

violence, legal discrimination and institutionalized oppression – but the politics

of the personal means understanding too the routine everyday talk through which

we collude with (or resist) the social order.


NOTES


1. Transcription symbols used in the data extracts are the conventional conversation

analytic ones as developed by Gail Jefferson and Emanuel Schegloff (see Atkinson and

Heritage, 1984, for a useful summary).

2. With thanks to Virginia Braun, Victoria Clarke, Liz Peel and Sue Wilkinson for

passing on to me the audiotapes of these coming out episodes, without which this

research would not have been possible. I am also grateful to Sue Wilkinson for helpful

comments on an earlier draft of this article.


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Recovery from Rape. New York: Farrar, Straus & Giroux.

Wood, K.M. (1997) ‘Narrative Iconicity in Electronic-mail Lesbian Coming Out Stories’,

pp. 257–73 in A. Livia and K. Hall (eds) Queerly Phrased: Language, Gender and

Sexuality. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

Zimmerman, D.H. and West, C. (1975) ‘Sex Roles, Interruptions and Silences in

Conversation’, in B. Thorne and N. Henley (eds) Language and Sex: Difference and

Dominance. Rowley, MA: Newbury House.

Celia KITZINGER is Reader in Lesbian and Feminist Psychology in the

Department of Social Sciences at Loughborough University. She has published

eight books and many articles and book chapters on lesbian and feminist issues.

She campaigned for many years for the formation of a Lesbian and Gay

Psychology Section in the British Psychological Society and since its formation

(in December 1998) has been its inaugural Chair.

ADDRESS: Women’s Studies Research Group, Department of Social Sciences,

Loughborough University, Loughborough LE11 3TU, UK.

[email: C.C.Kitzinger@lboro.ac.uk]

KITZINGER: Doing Feminist Conversation Analysis 193

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